Prime Minister Edi Rama attends days of politics, culture and debate “Atreju” 2023

Prime Minister Edi Rama is on a visit to Italy upon an invitation from the Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni to attend the "Atreju 2023" conservative festival, a four-day political and debate event taking place at the iconic Castel Sant'Angelo in Rome.

PM Rama had a conversation with Maurizio Belpietro, Director of "La Verità" and television presenter, and Andrea Malaguti, Director of "La Stampa".

* * *

-There is obviously a great interest in this event as presence of you all already shows and, of course, it is a pleasure to have Edi Ram and talk with him, although Edi Rama, together with Giorgia Meloni, is the protagonist of a current event, about which a lot and frequently has been said over the last few weeks. I will start off with this by starting with the questions we are interested in. What is the likelihood for the Albania-Italy deal to really be implemented and two reception centres to be set up in Albania?

Prime Minister Edi Rama:First and foremost, I feel really honored to be here and to have been granted the opportunity to communicate with a different political family. It seems to me that it is becoming increasingly important for us not to forget that after all the quality of shared life and the quality of democracy doesn't depend on how much we agree, but how capable we are to handle our disagreements is always important not to forget that in the end the quality of life together, the quality of democracy is not supported by what we agree, but in how we are able to manage our disagreements.

Having said this, it seems to me that too much of a disproportional fuss has been made about this whole story, about this agreement, which is extremely natural, as an agreement between two countries with different names, but which I see as two parts of the same people. This is because Italy has always been part of us, even when we couldn't cross the sea.

Likewise, this is also for what Italy has done for us immediately after the very first "re-embrace" moment, after the terrible long history of communist isolation. These facts would suffice for everyone to understand, for nobody to be surprised and wonder when we reach agreements of mutual understanding.

Therefore, it is always an honour for us to give a hand whenever you ask for our help and it will always be a privilege to be considered as Italy's special friend.

-Prime Minister, what is the likelihood in your view for the deal to fail because of the petition from the opposition filed with the Constitutional Court?

PM Edi Rama:It is something that primarily makes me laugh. No, wait a second, because you probably won't applaud. It makes me laugh because Giorgia (Meloni) congratulated them (the Albanian opposition) when they held their leadership election process. She of course didn't know me. She thought I was one of the non-recommended friends, as you put it, but the roles changed then. However, seriously speaking, first and foremost I am happy that everyone now understands, including the Albanian public who is under a constant propaganda "attack", allegedly claiming that Albania has no longer democracy as the country has now a "dictator." But Albania is a democracy. The Constitutional Court has done its duty, because according to the Constitution agreements are suspended automatically for consideration before they are ratified by parliament. So this is proof that I do not control the courts in Albania. On the other hand, I am fully confident that the agreement has nothing unconstitutional. Let's patiently wait for the court's assessment of the agreement and then embark on work together.

-You would have to wait until March, if I am not mistaken?

PM Edi Rama:March is the final deadline, but I think and I am confident that the decision will be made earlier, because this is a very important agreement between two countries and we need both governments to know whether they can go ahead or not without wasting time.

-Prime Minister, two questions very briefly; first, it is said that it had to be an agreement between the two states and not between two governments. It is of course also part of the Constitutional Court, but what I am interested in is that all these persons who are going to be sent to Albania would have to cross over 700 km or more by sea and then be accommodated in these centres and, most likely, to eventually be repatriated. Don't you think that the European Court of Human Rights would have its say over this kind of dynamics? How do you feel about it?

PM Edi Rama:I feel about it just like the leader of a European country. We have yet to become a EU member, yet we are a European country. The fact that we have yet to officially become EU members doesn't deny us the right to be a European country. Luckily this hasn't been decided by Brussels, but it was decided by geography. If Albania were France and if we had reached the deal to set up a reception centre, not only would no one be scandalized, but they would instead say: "France is receiving a little bit more migrants." However, we are neither France, nor Greece. Greece is a neighboring country, a European Union member. Greece is home to more than one reception center, but nobody is talking about it. Why it is that setting up such centres in a EU member state is a good move, but it is not seen the same way when it is about countries that lie in Europe geographically, but have yet to become members of the bloc.

-I will try to explain it. The thing is that France doesn't want these persons who will supposedly arrive in Italy.

PM Edi Rama: Ah, the French wouldn't want them? Why?

-We know why. But you answered correctly.

PM Edi Rama:So French don't want them, Albanians accept them, but Albanians are again the problem?

-Absolutely not. Albanians are not the problem. They are the solution in this case. The question is actually not from the Albanians' viewpoint, but from the point of view of those who will come to Albania; the ones who would have to travel another 700 kilometres.

PM Edi Rama:Yes, alright. If they were to go to Sweden, they will do more than the concept which is very clear, but which has never been addressed. It is clearly very simple. Whoever enters Italy or Greece, they enter the EU. The geography of Italy and Greece cannot be the curse of a bordering country and the blessing of a more geographically distant country and that says: "We won't accept them. Let others get them."

So if you were to look at all the agreements and this redistribution deal, the concept is that they go into a country bordering the EU and redistribute to the EU. This is what we have agreed upon, at least, but unfortunately that's what's being said and what they do is completely a different thing. Entering Albania would take these people some more kilometres, but if such an agreement would have worked within the EU, the distance they would have had to travel to Poland and Sweden would have been much longer, isn't it?

-Prime Minister, you cited a number of other countries. Given that you are talking about hospitality and you describe the deal as a solution to an Italian problem, could such a deal have been a solution to the problem facing other European countries, too. So, I am translating it as follows: Would you accept such an agreement with another country, because we came across Germany's reaction to this deal, saying it would be interested in reaching such an agreement?

PM Edi Rama:Look, I think it would be really pretentious to claim that the deal is the solution. This is not probably the solution, but it rather represents an effort to find solutions where it is clear that European Union (member states) cannot understand each other. The EU fails to find common understanding among its members about the origin of the problem, because the "suffering" we are through due to these flows has an origin that is related to the situation, to history, the relations between Africa and Europe. So, if the West in the UK is seen in a rather awkward way, if room has been left for other actors to take over business in Africa, while the West has been playing the role of a predator over the centuries, and when it comes to finding a better life people head to the West, then here there must be a broader vision, a deeper solution, but while a deeper solution is required, if this is done in a common way you have to work on solutions that maybe are not perfect. It is certainly easy for one to criticize an effort to do something positive, but it is incomprehensible what those who criticize do.

-Would you accept a similar request from another EU member state?

Prime Minister Edi Rama:No, no! Albania has received requests for agreements on migrants from other European countries but we said no.

-Can you reveal each of these countries? Because there is a difference. Would you reveal the names of these countries? Which are these countries that have forwarded the same request?

PM Edi Rama:The countries in question are "cousin countries, not brother countries like Italy. There is a difference: if we reach an agreement with a country like Italy we do it as a common effort, not as a third country on which to transfer the problem," said Rama, adding that Italy "is not transferring the problem, but trying to broaden the space to manage this course while dealing with the problem itself.

-For everyone to understand, because you said something a bit earlier, because the Western countries are also to be held accountable for these large migrant fluxes, which is your answer about this topic?

PM Edi Rama:The West faces an incredibly serious population decline. The West emerged from World War 2 with an average age of the population at 25 years, whereas the average age is about 50 years now. Where will the West secure the labour force? On the other hand, your labour force, because we have yet to become EU members, is declining. According to Goldman Sachs, a pro-Western source, in 2050, the only country to rank among the ten largest world companies will be Germany, which is projected to rank ninth largest economy. In the meantime, the United States will drop third after China and India.

I am probably in a serious conflict of interest personally, but you have been used to conflict of interest in Italy for many years now. If there is a reason why I very much like what Giorgia is doing, it is not only that despite all predictions of a fascist apocalypse against her, it is precisely her effort to convince Europe that it is indispensable to work together. And, if I may, allow me Giorgia to say that you are actually doing a very important thing by moving from a nationalist sovereignty in search of a European sovereignty, in the sense that Europe must wake up and figure out how it has to move forward for future generations, because winning the next elections could probably turn out to be much easier, but winning the battles for the future generations is much more difficult.

- Regarding the allies of our Prime Minister, we have come across voices calling for the removal of "abusers" from Brussels and for the Soros defeat. What do you think about this?

KM Edi Rama:I don't pay much attention to everyone, because the truth, so to tell the truth, given that I am a very dear friend of Soros, I can say that "the devil is not that bad" and Giorgia is the proof that this is true, isn't she?

-Prime Minister, you talk a lot about Europe, yet Europe is still keeping you outside its door. How did you feel when the European Council endorsed Ukraine's bid to join the EU, while Albania, which has been waiting for many years, did not gain anything?

PM Edi Rama:Listen, first of all, this gate and door concept is relative. We are inside, anyway. They have locked themselves in a room of this European house, where we are in. We have yet to enter and walk in the hall or the very room where decisions are made, but we are not outside. On the other hand, this agreement has made me feel a bit at home because you, journalists, Italian newspapers and media are exactly like brothers to Albanian journalists and media.

- It is in fact an international solidarity of journalism.

PM Edi Rama: I mean you come up with incredible phrases that can certainly also be excused, because you have to make utmost efforts to earn the likes before others do, and you have no time to verify the news.

-The politicians rush to gain those likes, too.

PM Edi Rama:But for you to calm down, since I know you come from Albania. We have opened the EU accession negotiations and we are moving forward. We no longer face a problem we used to face previously, when we were somehow taken hostage, given that certain EU member states are used to taking other countries hostage for their own internal or domestic reasons. For example, a EU member has to take another country hostage ahead of the next election to tell their voters they are fighting the non-EU members. This is just to trigger such a situation. This is for you to create an idea. We were held hostage by the Netherlands for 2 or 3 years. Everyone else was ready to open the accession talks with Albania, but the Netherlands was telling us: "You have to do more, you have to do more!" One day, a group of Dutch parliament members arrived on a fact-finding mission. The rapporteur, the one who was supposed to report on Albania, asks me: "Prime Minister, how do you think that Albania can harmonize both the Acquis communautaire, which is the cumulative body of European Community laws, with the Sharia law, which is the legislation of fundamentalist countries? "Are you asking me for a conceptual philosophical opinion on how such a thing can happen or is it a question about Albania, because Albania does not have Sharia law? - I asked him. "It has never had the Sharia law in place." Albania is a country with a mixed Christian and Muslim population and, just to provide an example for you, I am Catholic, my wife is Muslim. Our children from previous marriages are Orthodox Christians and a child we conceived together, who will decide himself what he wants to be. I have been lucky enough to meet Pope Francis, who, in my view, is the greatest indisputable leader of the left - I am saying this because you push me make me argue with the Italy's left - I'm talking about the European left and the world left, don't misquote me as if am saying that we should elect the Pope as the head of the Democratic Party. Don't do this to me. Anyway, I asked the Pope: "What religion should he embrace?" But the Holy Father, a very wise man, told me: "Let the little one grow up. He will decide for himself." This is a really fantastic message, because you have to be very careful about the culture war to not put everyone in the same pot. There is a very different, very diverse Muslim world. We should realize that if we put everyone in the same pot, we would be playing the very game of those more radical and more dangerous, whereas it is necessary to overcome this. That being said, I am pretty convinced that if Europe does not change significantly, Europe will be the biggest loser of this historical era.

- What can Europe do? A bit earlier you spoke about legitimacy, about the immigration issue. What should Europe do which Albania aspires to join?

PM Edi Rama:We must combat immigration together as a phenomenon being handled by organized crime organizations. On the other hand, we must fight together so that immigration can be managed by Europe itself, by the government and the institutions. So, it is a phenomenon that will be handled either by organized crime or the state institutions. This is obvious, because it is no longer possible to build large impregnable fortresses in Italy and Europe, because they can access Europe via the digital and cyber space from all sides. There is no impregnable thing today and therefore we should be able to alter our approach to the countries of origin, because migrants cannot be left in the wrong hands. Constructive relationships of trust and mutual interest should be forged so that people can migrate legally to work, to learn European languages and integrate in a human and legal way. If these two are not combined, the battle is lost.

- We are about to end this conversation and I would like to quickly ask you, what is the situation of democracy in Albania? I am asking this question, because you are seen as Albania's strongest leader for years, while the state of the opposition, let's say, is controversial. Of course, the lack of a political opposition is a democratic problem, but nevertheless something practical. Does the agreement with the Italian government include an accord on the pension of Albanian citizens in Italy?

PM Edi Rama: I will start with the second question, not because I am seeking to shun and escape the first question, but I stick to a principle, according to which anytime I travel abroad and I speak a foreign language, I never comment on the issues of the national politics in Albania, because it is unethical. It is my conviction that one has to defend his own country when being outside the borders of his country and therefore should also protect those who are not really fit in his country, the opposition in this case. There have been cases when the government was not in its best state and when in opposition I never travelled to Brussels, Washington or Rome to blast the Albanian government, because your interlocutors will have no time to understand your plea. I don't comment on this. Instead, I would answer the second question, which is of much interest for the public. When we signed this agreement, I have come across unimaginable things, which are the outcome of the imagination and fantasy of those who used to ask me "what lies behind it?" Before this agreement they even speculated about an alleged deal on building a secret nuclear plant in Albania. In other words, the Italian government and the Albanian government would allegedly build a secret nuclear plant, to do what? To build a secret nuclear bomb? They have speculated about every possible thing, but the issue of pension rights deal, which has been a long process being negotiated for many years with the previous Italian governments and is now entering a final phase, which will certainly take another stride, because it is not easy at all to usher in a final stage in Italy. The agreement is the one everyone can see and read. It is an agreement in good faith, it is an agreement of solidarity, an agreement of brotherhood between two governments that, on behalf of their two countries, do not focus on the colors of their political parties, but the colors of their own countries to deliver and do something positive. And there is really nothing else, nothing. Some even have asked: "What does Albania benefit from this agreement?" Then I have to ask the rhetorical question: "What did Italy benefit from helping Albania a thousand times since the 1990s? We have been through many painful moments throughout our long transition, when we risked losing our country with the pyramidal schemes. We were on the brink of a civil war, when Italian soldiers came to the country. What did the Italian institutions ask from Albania? Nothing! Then the earthquake happened and I have personally witnessed the Italian fire-fighters, boys and girls who came for the very first time to Albania. It was an extremely cold night and they kept searching through the rubble to save the lives of Albanians they had never seen or met by risking their own lives. What did they ask from Italy? Did they ask for money? Did they ask for anything else? Not at all! They did it and they returned home. Why should we then ask Italy for money or something else in exchange? No, we won't. We haven't asked for anything. We have offered the availability of the territory and cooperation about something that is a pressing issue for Italy. It is not up to us to give lectures or advice on how this problem can be solved and decide later. It would be great if it works. If not, we will have done everything to make it work. Yes, for those who play the moralist, because they have done nothing or since they had the opportunity to do it in any European country and they did nothing, I say; because tell us how to do it better, how to do it better or keep quiet. Then what does Albania do here?! What have we done? Have we done anything? What have we done?

- By the word "moralists", are you referring to the Italian left-wing party that sought to expel you from the European Socialist Party?

PM Edi Rama:Here you are. You are seeking to make me contradict the comrades in the Italian left-wing. No. I won't do so. I don't allow myself to comment on anyone in Italy. I would also like to clarify something else, because, yes we have established fraternal relations with Giorgia, so to say, but it is them who claim that such relations shouldn't be like that. It is them who think that I shouldn't be here. I had a dialogue with the European Socialist Party about this issue, as it was imaginable for them that I had agreed to attend this event. I am sorry, but this reminds me of the '80s, when Albania was isolated. There were once two main ultras groups in Albania; one supporting Lucio Battisti, and the other group supporting Adriano Celentano. No, it is really a true story, because Italian radio is the only thing we could listen to from the outside world. It was impossible to watch Italian TV channels that were off air when our Azzurre played. My grandmother used to call them "our Azzurre". Back then, our national squad hadn't left home yet and therefore we supported Italy. Tirana's main boulevard - which has been built by Italians and modern Tirana itself has been built by Italian architects by the end of the '20s and the '30s - was a kind of promenade for young people back then, with the group of Battisti supporters sitting or walking on one side of the boulevard, and Celentano's fans on the other. The two groups used to exchange jibes and even engage in physical brawls. One group sang Battisti's songs; the other loved Celentano and didn't speak to each other. They wanted to kill each other. I wanted to talk to both groups. I used to listen to both Lucio and Adriano. I liked them both. What's this? There are anti-Socialists; there are others who oppose the right-wing. However, we all talk about Italy, we talk about Europe, we talk about common values, yet we don't talk to each other. This can't and shouldn't happen. This is wrong.

-A short question; since you clarified that no secrets lie behind this agreement, what lies in front of this agreement. Is there a common understanding to go on with more agreements? Are there other opportunities for Albania and Italy?

PM Edi Rama:I have been told that members of this family are "obsessed" with the "lord of the rings". I would answer by a quote: "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

-Ok. I would like to thank Mr. Prime Minister and the government of Albania.

Public link

Please use the above public link if you want to share this noodl on another website.